[Peter]

Marvel's Siege event has come to a close making way for the Heroic Age. We discuss the ending, speculate on the aftermath and hear feedback from the listeners. (1:17:54)

Listen to the show:
http://www.comicgeekspeak.com/episodes/com..._speak-1085.php

[rebis]

Peter, that avatar is beautiful!

[Wood]

An interesting array of viewpoints on this one, seems like there was no consensus on this event. I personally enjoyed it, particularly for how it left things. But I certainly can't argue that there were a lot of plot contrivances. The issues with The Sentry are analogous to any uber powerful character (including Superman) in that each writer has to adapt their powers and weaknesses to suit that particular story. A few issues back in Dark Avengers we learned that Bob was on par with the Molecule Man and could literally reshape reality at his whim, he was pretty much a god. Yet in this story he's taken down by a BIG bullet and a hammer. Not likely, but hardly anything new to superhero comics.

What struck me about the Paul Jenkins talk was the lack of discussion on the issue itself. Did y'all not read Fallen Sun before this recording? I have to think not because, to my mind, it was one of the worst comics I've had the displeasure of buying in a long, long time. You want to talk about plot contrivances? How about retconning Bob into being this wonderful man that touched everyone in the MU? When have we ever seen him that way? He took Rogue's virginity?!?!? Really!?!?! Why would that need to be part of the story when they were never on the same page together. Not to mention he's been a married man since his beginnings back in the day.

To me New Avengers Finale was a fitting end to that series, but the art suffered (what has happened to Hitch?) Fallen Sun was a debacle, and Siege #4 was a decent, but not amazing, end to an action-packed event.

[wayne1]

An interesting array of viewpoints on this one, seems like there was no consensus on this event. I personally enjoyed it, particularly for how it left things. But I certainly can't argue that there were a lot of plot contrivances. The issues with The Sentry are analogous to any uber powerful character (including Superman) in that each writer has to adapt their powers and weaknesses to suit that particular story. A few issues back in Dark Avengers we learned that Bob was on par with the Molecule Man and could literally reshape reality at his whim, he was pretty much a god. Yet in this story he's taken down by a BIG bullet and a hammer. Not likely, but hardly anything new to superhero comics.

What struck me about the Paul Jenkins talk was the lack of discussion on the issue itself. Did y'all not read Fallen Sun before this recording? I have to think not because, to my mind, it was one of the worst comics I've had the displeasure of buying in a long, long time. You want to talk about plot contrivances? How about retconning Bob into being this wonderful man that touched everyone in the MU? When have we ever seen him that way? He took Rogue's virginity?!?!? Really!?!?! Why would that need to be part of the story when they were never on the same page together. Not to mention he's been a married man since his beginnings back in the day.

To me New Avengers Finale was a fitting end to that series, but the art suffered (what has happened to Hitch?) Fallen Sun was a debacle, and Siege #4 was a decent, but not amazing, end to an action-packed event.

Wood,

I concur with your assessment regarding the Sentry. Marvel would have done well to extend the event atleast another issue; the Sentry - especially as portrayed in Siege - is/was too powerful a character to be taken out in 32 pages. Besides that, no other complaints and I look forward to reading Avengers #1 tonight.

[Jamie D]

An interesting array of viewpoints on this one, seems like there was no consensus on this event. I personally enjoyed it, particularly for how it left things. But I certainly can't argue that there were a lot of plot contrivances. The issues with The Sentry are analogous to any uber powerful character (including Superman) in that each writer has to adapt their powers and weaknesses to suit that particular story. A few issues back in Dark Avengers we learned that Bob was on par with the Molecule Man and could literally reshape reality at his whim, he was pretty much a god. Yet in this story he's taken down by a BIG bullet and a hammer. Not likely, but hardly anything new to superhero comics.

What struck me about the Paul Jenkins talk was the lack of discussion on the issue itself. Did y'all not read Fallen Sun before this recording? I have to think not because, to my mind, it was one of the worst comics I've had the displeasure of buying in a long, long time. You want to talk about plot contrivances? How about retconning Bob into being this wonderful man that touched everyone in the MU? When have we ever seen him that way? He took Rogue's virginity?!?!? Really!?!?! Why would that need to be part of the story when they were never on the same page together. Not to mention he's been a married man since his beginnings back in the day.

To me New Avengers Finale was a fitting end to that series, but the art suffered (what has happened to Hitch?) Fallen Sun was a debacle, and Siege #4 was a decent, but not amazing, end to an action-packed event.

Nope didnt read Fallen Sun yet, I am getting it in my order from DCBS I only get one once a month so I couldnt talk about it and most of the others read my copies of things

[Happenstance]

Halfway through listening and just got the Ms Marvel/Spidey comment about their possible romance. Its actually been going on a bit in Ms Marvel's own series with their date and I think theres been a few mentions since (although not in Amazing Spider-Man if I remember right.
Despite the fact that I still hate OMD I actually quite like the pairing of Ms Marvel and Spidey so if he has to move on then id like to see that furthered.

[allaboutduncan]

Peter, that avatar is beautiful!

Isn't it.

http://picasaweb.google.com/phillip.duncan/Sketches#

LOL - that's a sketch that Dave Wachter did for me at HeroesCon 2009.

Peter, I'm bummed that we're not going to make it to HeroesCon 2010 and you're there this year. Next year, hopefully they'll have the dates back later in June and we can make it.

[Peter]

Next year!

Dave Wachter had those Hawk prints at Super Show. I had to have a copy!

[allaboutduncan]

Next year!

Dave Wachter had those Hawk prints at Super Show. I had to have a copy!

He's selling that as a print. That makes me feel special. Hmm... I wonder how much the original is worth.

Speaking of next year, going to try and get to Super Show.

Peter, you should hit DragonCon this year. I'll probably be there for at least a day (and Wizard World Atlanta). Only a short drive and my sister lives there.

[allaboutduncan]

On topic - I agree with the Sentry complaints. What was once a fascinating concept was ruined by too many people not knowing what to do with him.

When Bendis introduced the Molecule Man like powers, I just knew it was an out for a Crisis like rewrite or at least a fix for what Scarlet Witch had done--possibly under the influence of the Sentry. Then, they throw in the junkie-drug user story and I just lost interest all together in the character. Too many ideas and too many directions.

For his power level, Sentry was definitely taken out too easily. I would have said that as well, before the Molecule Man power level shift. Other than a means to an end, it's not played out much of anything other than the destruction of Asgard.

All the major occurrences (Iron Man's new armor, Thor/Tony reconcile, Cap returns) have all played out elsewhere. I thought it started out great and ended up as a whole lot of nothing.

[Agitprop]

After I'd finished reading Siege, I was fine with it. My positives and negatives pretty much lined up with the Geeks' from the pre-caller portion of the show (I'm still listening). But then I realized - for THIS we lost JMS at Marvel? Really? I don't think that trade was worth it at all. As much as I'm loving The Brave & The Bold at this point, I'd still rather have the man on Thor. Hopefully Fraction's run will make me think I was crazy to ever worry about it.

[Agitprop]

Random thought that just occurred to me as I'm wrapping up the show - with the gods of War and Mischief out of commission, and the god of Fear running amok over in the Siege: Secret Warriors special, is it possible that Phobos is being set up to be, if not a full on villain, at least an antagonist for an upcoming storyline? I'd buy that for a dollar (maybe even for three)! That might explain Jamie's perceived anticlimax - why build him up if it's not going someplace?

[Fred Ricchio]

But then I realized - for THIS we lost JMS at Marvel? Really? I don't think that trade was worth it at all. As much as I'm loving The Brave & The Bold at this point, I'd still rather have the man on Thor. Hopefully Fraction's run will make me think I was crazy to ever worry about it.

Agreed. But after having his runs on FF, Spider-Man, and now Thor interrupted, I wish him all the best at DC; hope they treat him better there.

Though I do have high hopes for Fraction's run based on his earlier work on Thor.

[rebis]

After I'd finished reading Siege, I was fine with it. My positives and negatives pretty much lined up with the Geeks' from the pre-caller portion of the show (I'm still listening). But then I realized - for THIS we lost JMS at Marvel? Really? I don't think that trade was worth it at all. As much as I'm loving The Brave & The Bold at this point, I'd still rather have the man on Thor. Hopefully Fraction's run will make me think I was crazy to ever worry about it.

After listening to the callers, I thought the same thing. Seige made it seem like Loki wanted Asgard to either leave Midgard or Rule it. That isn't the direction JMS was taking the character. BTW, wouldn't Loki have have had the, "I've gone to far" thought when he discovered what Doom was doing to Asgardians?

Oh well. The event is over. The stage has been set. Bring on The Heroic Age. I'm looking forward to some Captain Rogers.

[Peter]

The Loki point is very mish-moshy. I speculated in issue 3's episode that we needed to see Loki at some point since he was the start of it all. Here's a snippet of the CBR interview with Bendis about Loki's inclusion. It's definitely more than just wanting to be a thorn in his brother's side:

CBR: In this scene, Loki says, "I meant only for Asgard to rule in greatness as it has done in the past." So what did Loki ultimately want? Did he want things to go back to their original status quo with Asgard not being located on Earth, or was he after something else?

BENDIS: That's always been up to different writers' interpretations. Some writers portray him as a character who just wants to fuck with his brother all the time. It seemed to me, though, that he believes himself to be the rightful ruler of Asgard; that he's better than his brother and his vision is the truer one. That's the way I always perceived it. And here we are in this new era of Asgard, where it's on Midgard and everyone has been resurrected. It's a perfect time for all these characters to have their agendas very clear. Now they're getting and going after what they want, and Loki decided he was going to use Midgard to make Asgard the way it should be.

CBR: So, Loki felt that Asgard's existence on Midgard was an affront?

BENDIS: Yeah. I think a lot of the Asgardians do. It's wrong. It's not the way things should be. Thor agrees with them, but he feels like that's the way things are and they have to deal with it. Loki and others, though, would strike back from it. We set this up pretty clearly in "The Cabal" prologue and the first issue. Loki's agenda was clear. I think the reveal is that he was telling the truth. He's someone who lies if he needs to, and he wasn't lying here. If you go back and read issue #1, it's right there.

The rest is here:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=26287

All of which makes me wonder again, as Adam said in the ep, what the heck did Loki expect? Where was he during the carnage BEFORE Sentry went nuts?

[Nathan P. Mahney]

Man, if Bendis could ever get the ideas in his interviews onto the page, his comics would be 100% better.

[Czor]

Really liked Siege and how it all went but yeah my minor grip about Sentry's power levels and how he was taken out are the same as everyone. Also the true motive for Loki to do all this...

...but as an ending for Osbourne's Dark Reign and a beginning for the Heroic Age, I really liked Siege.

[David D.]

Great show, guys.

A thing I forgot to mention on my call- I really enjoyed the way the Asgardians showing up at the end, and establishing their symbolic marker in Midguard really plays on the idea that Asgard and Midguard (or, specifically, the U.S.) share a border. And, despite a U.S. led invasion on Asguard, there is a current state of peace in this shared border. That is a nice bit of tension set up there. I have never been a Thor reader before the JMS run (something I will fix someday) so I don't know if this idea has been played before, but I really like the idea of a sort of border tension between these planes. And I wouldn't be surprised if this is an idea played in the Thor movie as well (for example, if SHIELD is aware of the existence of Asgard, a place filled with these powerful beings, they may very well be spying on, and developing defenses against, this potential existential threat).

[Corwin]

I just started listening and I just had to chime in. I can't explain what happened with the Helicarrier being dropped on the Sentry but I think Bob had a lot to do with Thor getting the killing blow. If Bob, the Sentry and Void all wanted to live I don't think Thor could have touched him.

After listening to the callers, I thought the same thing. Seige made it seem like Loki wanted Asgard to either leave Midgard or Rule it. That isn't the direction JMS was taking the character. BTW, wouldn't Loki have have had the, "I've gone to far" thought when he discovered what Doom was doing to Asgardians?

Loki knew full what what Doom was doing. He drugged and gave some Asgardians to Doom.

The Loki point is very mish-moshy. I speculated in issue 3's episode that we needed to see Loki at some point since he was the start of it all. Here's a snippet of the CBR interview with Bendis about Loki's inclusion. It's definitely more than just wanting to be a thorn in his brother's side:

All of which makes me wonder again, as Adam said in the ep, what the heck did Loki expect? Where was he during the carnage BEFORE Sentry went nuts?

I think Loki wanted Asgard back where it belonged. Not only that but he wanted to break the cycle of Ragnarok. It gets explained in the Loki One-shot. When Asgardians die they don't get to go to Valhalla or where ever things have been changed. He brokered a deal between Mephisto and Hela for some land in Mephisto's realm and I think Loki is beyond Hela's reach after he dies. I don't expect to see the last of him but I don't know how sincere he was with his apology to Thor.

My take? He wanted to increase hostilities between Asgard and Midgard. But I don't think he expected the Sentry to be as powerful as he was.

[BillDoughty]

Halfway through listening and just got the Ms Marvel/Spidey comment about their possible romance. Its actually been going on a bit in Ms Marvel's own series with their date and I think theres been a few mentions since (although not in Amazing Spider-Man if I remember right.
Despite the fact that I still hate OMD I actually quite like the pairing of Ms Marvel and Spidey so if he has to move on then id like to see that furthered.

I've only read maybe 10 or fewer issues from the most recent Ms. Marvel series, and two of them involved Peter and Carol - the annual, which is basically a Bugs Bunny/Daffy Duck story with super-powers, and the issue with their date. Based on just those two issues, I think that Spider-Man and Ms. Marvel together in some context (friends, team-up partners, maybe something more) is a good thing, as they play off one another very well indeed (at least when Brian Reed is writing them, anyway).