[Peter]

After twenty years, Miracleman is back in the news! We present the first in a series of Off the Rack Specials taking a look at the initial run starting with volume 1: A Dream of Flying. (1:25:12)

The ep is not on iTunes just yet but you can download it or listen to it on our episode page:
http://www.comicgeekspeak.com/episodes/com...k_speak-980.php

It should be released through iTunes sometime today. We've just gone over our quota for the month.

Enjoy!

[Magneto_Guevara]

Really looking forward to listening to this!

I was lucky enough to obtain all the Moore and Gaiman issues (in single and/or in trade) in the early '90s, when the prices weren't astronomical.

For my money, Miracleman is Moore's most important work. It was where he first played out the dueling themes of superheroes as real people and superheroes as SUPER-MEN (with all the serious consequences therein). It's not as well-crafted as Watchmen, as political as V for Vendetta, as well-researched as From Hell or League, as well-illustrated as Promethea, or as long-running and expansive as Swamp Thing, but more than his other works I think Miracleman spotlights the SPARK of original genius that Moore contributed to the medium.

While I admit that I'm a bit self-satisfied with having already owned the series for a long time now, it is a shame that it isn't in print. Too bad we haven't gotten a clear statement yet from Marvel as to whether the Moore and Gaiman issues really will be reprinted or not. I expect that Marvel's lawyers have realized that reprinting those issues will be a little trickier than Joe Q (and the rest of us) hoped at first. Call Todd McFarlane a jerk, but if the matter of ownership was as settled as Neil Gaiman says it is--with Todd having zero claim on the Eclipse issues--then there's no reason Gaiman himself couldn't have continued his story years ago. I believe that Gaiman himself knows that the matter is a little more complicated--otherwise, what was the point if his having argued with Todd for so many years? Now all of a sudden we're to believe that Todd never owned anything? I'm glad that Marvel purchased whatever it purchased from Marvelman's original creator (always great for original creators to get paid), but I don't know what bearing that would have on Todd's claim over the Eclipse material (specifically, the rights to print it, since Gaiman obviously owns his scripts and Buckingham owns the original artwork).

Not trying to be pedantic--and I would rejoice if we hear for sure that there's going to be a new Marvel Omnibus of the '80s material--but as the months pass and there's no further news about the Eclipse material being reprinted, I grow increasingly assured in my dissenting opinion that Gaiman simply took Marvel's purchase as an excuse to belittle McFarlane, and there isn't really a clear path toward republication of the material. Of course, none of this would matter if McFarlane would just sell whatever he owns to Marvel as well.

[Devyn Rodriguez]

I can't add much, so I'll give out something that made me laugh.

Since when does anyone credit Geoff Johns with using continuity to restore or portray a character? There is a whole class of writers before him (starting with Roy Thomas going up to guys like Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek). At the same time Peter is right because not all newer fans are familiar with Roy Thomas.

Great episode guys!

[Peter]

Since when does anyone credit Geoff Johns with using continuity to restore or portray a character?

Well since you listened to the episode I'd have to say "When? About 21 minutes into the episode. Duh". lol

There is a whole class of writers before him (starting with Roy Thomas going up to guys like Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek).

Nobody said there wasn't. I was just commenting on the writer today that is most labeled with the revisionist type of storytelling (when needed) that Alan Moore made popular.

[Calib@n]

Great episode, CGS.

Thoughts and observations:
Warrior was indeed a black and white magazine and it was also magazine sized. The artwork in the original Eclipse reprints has been shrunk down as well as coloured.
Here is the first page from Warrior #1 in March 1982.

and here is the same in a larger image

This is the page from #2 with Guntag Borghelm

and larger image

Interestingly the Warrior run did not start with the Mick Anglo reprint material. We didn't see that reprint until they published a Warrior Marvelman special which featured the Alan Moore framing story Saturday Morning Pictures, later used for the Eclipse Miracleman 3D issue.

Big Ben was indeed a Dez Skinn creation. Later on Skinn published his own Big Ben stories in the pages of Warrior and got to return him to his original intention of a super-spy with nods to James Bond, John Steed and the Prisoner.

I don't think those Big Ben stories have ever been reprinted?

The Marvelman/Miracleman run in Warrior ended in #21 when the Marvel 'cease and desist' order arrived. It would be another 2 years before we got to read the outcome of the Gargunza story in the Eclipse issues.

Finally, a nod to 2 editors: Dez Skinn for Warrior which gave us Miraceleman, V for Vendetta, Pressbutton and Mr Moore himself; and Cat Yronwode for bringing the story to Eclipse. By the way Miracleman #8 was a reprint issue because of the flood at the Eclipse headquarters which delayed all their books. The issue even had a framing story featuring Cat herself explaining the flood, the reprints and promising to get back on track ASAP.

[Marathon]

I just wanted to possibly explain the confusing Evelyn Cream dialogue with someone unseen. He was actually talking to himself, mocking himself for, after having lived a life of wealth and opportunity (rough equivalents to Ivy League schooling and West Point military academy) throwing it all away once this 'White God' appears and regressing back to believe in magic and superstition like his ancestors did generations ago.

A couple of points on things mentioned by the guys:

Murd was right about the D-Notice being a request from the government not to publish something that would harm national security.

Jamie, Mr Cream is not African-American.

[Jason Aiken]

I only own Kimota: The Miracleman Companion... got it for like 50% off cover at the LCS. Pretty sweet of a steal.

It's a great series, right up there with Supreme (which is a similar deconstruction and revitalization) and League of Extraordinary Gentleman...

Marvel better throw a load of money at Gaiman and get the Kubert boys to pencil to finish up his arc and do more issues.

Also, did anyone else read Albion from Wildstorm a few years back? Moore's daughter and son in law worked off an outline he had made up for that one. It was really similar to Miracle Man's rebirth, but it included a shit load of the UK IPC media characters that DC got the rights to. They even spun off a few minis from it, Thunderbolt Jaxon written by Dave Gibbons and a Battler Britton one written by Garth Ennis.

This post has been edited by Jason Aiken: 02 January 2010 - 12:25 AM

[Webhead]

First off I want to thank you for doing this episode. I have not listened to the episode I am holding off to listen to it when I can really listen to it as opposed to having it play in the background.

I am old enough and lucky enough to have bought all the issues off the rack at my LCS. I was hooked right off the bat, then I got real lucky, my sister was studying abroad in England and sent me a stack of Warrior comics so I have all the US issues and a bunch of the UK versions along with The Kimota book. In those Warriors issues I have the only issue of Marvelman/Miracleman issue that was never released in the US.

The one thing that I always liked about the series is how Moore turned a typical 50's type superhero into something new and refreshing without stepping all over it's history. Saying that everything that Morgan had happened before were memories implanted and that they came from comic books was brilliant.

[DarkKnightJared]

Man, I really need to get this book!

Marvel really needs to reprint those books at some point--sooner, preferably, than later.

[Devyn Rodriguez]

Nobody said there wasn't. I was just commenting on the writer today that is most labeled with the revisionist type of storytelling (when needed) that Alan Moore made popular.

Ah Mr. Rio's, your sage-like logic is quite logical (think about that for a second )

[bean6344]

There is so much I want to say about this episode that I should take notes first, but I think I will just jump in.

First and foremost, I want to thank you all for a fabulous episode. I was REALLY scared that some of the crew might have been let down by MM. I think that many people who have never had a chance to read MM can be disappointed because the reality of reading the book does not live up to the myth of the "Comic Book Holy Grail" they had had built it up to in their minds. Luckily, you all seem to have gone into this exercise understanding that no book can live up to the hype that has been cast upon this book over the last 10 to 15 years and were willing to take it for what it was and (most importantly) always considering the time and place of it's original publication. Next, I wish you were tackling the next trade sooner but understand that you all have very much on your plate and I will just have to be patient. Strap in boys because its going to get very very graphic very soon. lastly, I think I may try a format of bullet points and images to round out my thoughts on the material and my history with it.

* I purchased the 1st Eclipse issue begrudgingly at my LCS. I was not a fan of non-1st print material back then and had realized that these were reprints, but my love for Alan Moore and Eclipse's aggressive marketing broke down this prejudice. See below for the add showing that Eclipse was breaking the "Buc Barrier". At this time, Marvel and DC comics were mostly 65 to 75 cents (the Baxter books were $1.25) and independent titles were usually $1.25 to $2.00, so I thought 75 cents was a good deal. Thank goodness that I did. The first issue blew me away and I was ready to ride this out until the end.

* I had always been a fan of indy comics (American Flagg, Grendel, Mage, Love and Rockets, Nexus, etc.) so it was not problem for me to try this book.
* Soon after issue 1 came out, I discovered that a weird record store near my house (The Record Exchange) had a a smallish supply of British magazines. I was able to pick up some issues of Warrior. I discovered that Moore was also working V For Vendetta, The Bojeffries Saga (which was kind of like The Young Ones meets the Addams Family and is also out of print) and Warpsmith.

* I hope that this episode helps to point out the amount of comics that are criminally out of print. In the digital age, there is no excuse for keeping printed material out of the hands of those who want to read it. CBR/PDF files cost almost nothing to produce. That said, there is another "Holy Grail" comic out there that I think a lot of American readers do not even know exists. It is called Zenith. Zenith is one of Grant Morrison's earlier works produced in the U.K. As far as I know, it has only been partially published in the US in an inferior 2000 a.d. reprint book back in the late 80's.

I have not read the whole run (because it is out of print and nearly impossible to find) but it is my understanding that Zenith is also a very important comic. From wikipedia, "in 1987, when he and Steve Yeowell created Zenith, an early example of deconstructing the superhero genre. Morrison had been sending proposals to DC Comics for revamping various characters during this time. He had several proposals ignored, including Second Coming, but his work on Zenith got him noticed by DC."

So, that's where we are now. I want to conclude by wishing that everyone will soon have the opportunity to read these stories (all discussed above and more). I think that one of the most important things that this episode has pointed out is that there are always many great stories that someone has not had the opportunity to read and how wonderful it is when they get the chance to experience these stories for the first time.
Bean

[yodajones]

Good episode guys! Interesting to hear the different perspectives on this comic. Is it the first revisionist work? No, but it was definitely the most influential. There is an old saw about the Velvet Underground; that they only sold 10,000 albums but every one who heard them started a band. Miracleman may not be in as many hands as it should be.(hopefully Marvel will fix that) but almost every writer who came after MM had read it and cite it as a major influence. The influence of MM is even felt in Moore's own Watchmen, where he goes further in-depth on some of the "real-world superheroes" ideas he first visited here. For better or worse the postmodern superhero story starts here.

Chris- I have that 1982 Summer Special as well as a few random issues of Warrior. In the early 80s after I read Swamp Thing I sought them out. Never got rid of them. Why someone hasn't done anything cool with WarpSmith I will never know. (WarpSmith by Morrison and Quitely?)

Always thought Michael Clarke Duncan would've made a great Evelyn Cream.I'll be following along in my Eclipse issues.

[bean6344]

The artwork here really accentuates the story, makes it work so much better than if it had been done by a lesser artist, which is saying something since this is early Alan Davis, at a point when he was doing comics for a lark with little intention of making it a career.
chris
[/quote]
Isn't that Garry Leach?
Bean

[bean6344]

Jamie, Mr Cream is not African-American.

This is a PC falsify that many Americans fall into. We know that not all people of color (thank you for my very PC verbiage) were forcibly transported to our continen or lived here prior to our arrival , but many of us use the phrase "XXX-American" in a hope that we will not offend anyone who did not come to this (wonderful) content of their own free will.
I know you gave Jamie a "winking emoticon", but I hope you understand (I assume) he meant no disrespect. Its almost forbidden to state "black, colored, Indian, Eskimo, negro, etc." in our culture. I am sure that he understood that Mr. Cream was in no way American, but was just trying to not offend anyone.
I may be rambling on and I apologize for overstepping my position.
Bean

[Marathon]

This is a PC falsify that many Americans fall into. We know that not all people of color (thank you for my very PC verbiage) were forcibly transported to our continen or lived here prior to our arrival , but many of us use the phrase "XXX-American" in a hope that we will not offend anyone who did not come to this (wonderful) content of their own free will.
I know you gave Jamie a "winking emoticon", but I hope you understand (I assume) he meant no disrespect. Its almost forbidden to state "black, colored, Indian, Eskimo, negro, etc." in our culture. I am sure that he understood that Mr. Cream was in no way American, but was just trying to not offend anyone.
I may be rambling on and I apologize for overstepping my position.
Bean

Don't worry about it, it was just a joke.

[bean6344]

Don't worry about it, it was just a joke.

I understand. Its just that some people take these thing seriously based upon an offhanded comment. Heck, it was not my place to even try and clear the air. Sorry for bringing the thread down.
Bean