What's the point? Options

[Rickey]

So the other day I'm sitting here checking train ticket prices and seeing if it's at all financially as well as temporally possible to make it out to SPX this year, and my boyfriend asks me what the point of going to a show is. Not in a shitty way suggesting it's pointless, but honestly wondering what my goals are.
And I had to admit, I sat there blankly for a second before saying "Well, I guess it's about networking, getting your work out there, selling books." And he asks "Okay and then what?"
And I didn't really have an answer. I knew he was thinking in terms of a film-maker (which is his aspiration) and if you enter your films into festivals you go to these shows with the hopes of networking and getting your work out there, but when it comes to selling your film you're either hoping it gets picked up by a larger movie house or distributor or that your talent displayed in the film gets picked up and you get a contract or money to go out and make more film.
So what is the equivalent in comics?
I just really started thinking about this after listening to 148 the "End of Floppies" episode where Ryan suggests that if you're selling under the diamond threshold perhaps you shouldn't be publishing books. Now let me say first that I think Ryan's a great guy. Every time I start one of my little "how do you" threads on here, not only is he always one of the first with feedback, but he is also by far the person with the most SOLID advice. But I have to admit when I heard that it stung a little. I mean not only have I never sold 2500 books, I haven't sold 1500 books, I haven't sold 1000 books, I haven't sold 500 or 250 or 100 or even 50 books. But listening further to the show I realized there is much more I could do. I could go to more shows, I could try having it in more stores around the country, I could push more. But I'm a realist at heart. And doing all that, I can't say that my little stories about old women and drag queens questioning god and contemplating death would ever hit those numbers.
So why do I do it? I do it because I love having something I've made and wanted to say out of my head and in the world as a real thing I can share and communicate with other human beings. Plain and simple. I have a thousand stories I want to tell, and comics lets me do that in a way that reveals a more complete while interactive picture... I don't have to go into why comics work so well as a medium, other more experienced people have said it before and better.
But for someone like me, comics are the best way to express myself.
So I publish my own books, give away/trade most of them and sell the few I'm lucky enough to get money for.
Sure I'd like to sell more.
And I'd love to live in a magic world where I could quit my day job and make MY comics full time.
But for me just making the comics IS the point.
And it could be worse, I could spend all my time and money on Civil War reenactment instead.

This post has been edited by Rickey: Mar 6 2009, 07:28 PM

[Charlito]

Rickey,

I'm hoping that you WILL be going to SPX this year. There is a point indeed. It doesn't matter how lofty or how small the reason!!!! Sometimes that can be the best thing for an artist.

To just get out of bed and ink one panel sometimes can be a bigger success than drawing 5 pages in a day.

And WHAT if, Adrian Tomine, Alex Robinson, Chris Ware, Jordan Crane, Tom Hart, Scott Morse, Jay Stephens and COUNTLESS others hadn't decided to do their tiny mini comics those years back?

Any lil movement no matter how small is movement, otherwise you're just sitting in place. If one needs to sit in one place cuz the struggle has been too much or that truly makes them content, fine. It makes sense, But IF NOT......well...

.... then I would ask your boyfriend or more importantly each one of us. , "And then what?"


ps. thanks for posting.

This post has been edited by Charlito: Mar 6 2009, 09:24 PM

[joey weiser]

But for me just making the comics IS the point.

For me, the point of making comics is to have people read them. I love writing and drawing and all that, but I think "the point" for me is to eventually have a product read/hopefully enjoyed by as many people as possible. So the point of going to shows like SPX is to get my work into the hands of people in the outside world, which gives me purpose to make comics in the first place.

[JP Hootiger]

Not to put words in Ryan's mouth, but I did interpret his comments in the show a little differently. I totally took that comment to mean that, if you're in comics to make it a primary source of income then you should be selling more than 1,000 copies of those books. I don't think any of us on this particular board would mean to discourage self-publishing for pleasure (or self-publishing so you can demonstrate talent to bigger publishers).

Whether or not Ryan meant what I think he did, I do agree that the folks who think they're going to be the next Eastman & Laird success story (or worse -- the start-ups who think they're going to be the next Marvel or DC) should find another gig if they aren't making the Diamond threshold. If you ain't doing it for love and you ain't making money, what's left?

But Rickey, your main point is really intriguing, that "what's the point?" question. I'd be interested to hear everyone else's thoughts. I'm sure I'm in the minority where, though I am a writer, I have a comfy day job so I don't pursue my own comics with the same zeal others do. But I still love comics shows -- for me the whole point is discovering new art and getting drunk with friends and telling horrible stories about John Byrne.

[lizbaillie]

What's the point of going to shows like SPX? I'll tell you some of the things that are "the point" for me:

-networking, making friends, and hanging out with other cartoonists, publishers, and media types. It's a really, REALLY lonely business with so many hours alone at home drawing, I *need* that socialization time with people in a similar boat who understand all the trials and tribulations of a life in comics. Internet socializing is all fine and good, but nothing beats getting drunk at a con in the middle of nowhere karaoke-ing the world's worst rendition of "Cum on Feel the Noize" with James Kochalka and a hundred other sweaty, drunken souls. I speak from experience.

-selling books & getting books into people's hands. The people who want to buy minicomics and interesting, quirky indie comics come to these shows specifically to buy new and cool stuff, as well as stuff by their favorites. You can get to be one of someone's "favorites" by just showing up to show after show after show. The more shows you go to, the more people remember you, the more likely they are to buy your book. I've been going to these sorts of shows on a regular basis for the last 3 or 4 years and my sales have only increased. If we are getting technical, my sales have increased roughly 700% since I started going to shows *regularly* four years ago. Yes. Seven Hundred Percent. This is why I tell people: Just. Keep. Going. To. Shows.

-finding your new favorite artist! Walk around and see what's interesting. Support other artists if you have the cash, or try and trade with them so you can make a new friend and possibly get hooked on a new artist's work!

-Seeing panels on topics of interest! There's always all kinds of panels at these things. I rarely leave my table so I never see them, but I hear they can be pretty neat!

-Illustration gigs! It's nothing to depend on, but I've gotten more than a few illustration gigs from people who happened to see my work at a show and pick up a comic or two. Extra cash is always nice!

-last but not least, IT'S FUCKING FUN! It's an adventure to a place you've (probably) never been! Pile your exhausted body on the floor of a hotel room stacked up with drunk nerds! It's more fun that it sounds! If you live driving distance it's an excuse for a ROAD TRIP! I always make a point to take my picture with at least one Bob's Big Boy en route to SPX:



YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO PARTY WITH THE BIG BOY!

[Lieutenant Lava]

If your boyfriend is an aspiring film-maker, then he should be familiar with Robert McKee (if he's not, I'm gonna' kick his butt!). In his book STORY, he has a triangular diagram where he seperates types of films into three different catagories: Miniplot, Archplot and Antiplot. You can probably guess what the first two catagories are... but the third has some of my favorite movies in it: 8 1/2, That Obscure Object of Desire (almost anything Buñuel did), Wayne's World, Eraserhead, Weekend, etc.

Basically, these films do not do well. The list above is the most famous of these movies. They were made because of the passion to tell a story. We, as artists, have the need to express ourselves, sometimes naratively, sometimes not. The hardest part of self-publishing, or pushing a film that you know isn't going to make a lot of money, or any money, is that we still have to market it. We still have to put it out into the world that we are seeking to change, often to see it drown. It's painful.

Yet we continue to do it. Because we need to. I wouldn't be alive today if I didn't learn how to write, and that's the honest truth. Writing LITERALLY saved my life. And maybe it's like Dumbo's feather, I think if I stop it I'll fall, but I can't help but write... it may not keep me alive at the moment, but it sure makes me feel like I'm flying and nobody can take that away.

So what I guess I'm (longwindedly) trying to say is that even if you don't have "a point," you have a desire. A desire to create. Marilyn Manson (yeah, what? I'm quoting Marilyn Manson, get over it!) said "I remember growing up, saying you’re an artist, it sounds pretentious. But now it’s one of the only dignified things that you can call yourself." The desire to create is the most basic, the most powerful. Don't deny it... put it out there. It's scary, yes, but it's the birth pangs of the process. It will grow into something beautiful. It just takes time.







Or you can just tell him that you want to get your comic turned into a movie. Just like Alan Moore.













PS Diamond can suck it! I got yr threshold right here!

[joey weiser]

What's the point of going to shows like SPX? I'll tell you some of the things that are "the point" for me:

-networking, making friends, and hanging out with other cartoonists, publishers, and media types. It's a really, REALLY lonely business with so many hours alone at home drawing, I *need* that socialization time with people in a similar boat who understand all the trials and tribulations of a life in comics. Internet socializing is all fine and good, but nothing beats getting drunk at a con in the middle of nowhere karaoke-ing the world's worst rendition of "Cum on Feel the Noize" with James Kochalka and a hundred other sweaty, drunken souls. I speak from experience.

-selling books & getting books into people's hands. The people who want to buy minicomics and interesting, quirky indie comics come to these shows specifically to buy new and cool stuff, as well as stuff by their favorites. You can get to be one of someone's "favorites" by just showing up to show after show after show. The more shows you go to, the more people remember you, the more likely they are to buy your book. I've been going to these sorts of shows on a regular basis for the last 3 or 4 years and my sales have only increased. If we are getting technical, my sales have increased roughly 700% since I started going to shows *regularly* four years ago. Yes. Seven Hundred Percent. This is why I tell people: Just. Keep. Going. To. Shows.

-finding your new favorite artist! Walk around and see what's interesting. Support other artists if you have the cash, or try and trade with them so you can make a new friend and possibly get hooked on a new artist's work!

-Seeing panels on topics of interest! There's always all kinds of panels at these things. I rarely leave my table so I never see them, but I hear they can be pretty neat!

-Illustration gigs! It's nothing to depend on, but I've gotten more than a few illustration gigs from people who happened to see my work at a show and pick up a comic or two. Extra cash is always nice!

-last but not least, IT'S FUCKING FUN! It's an adventure to a place you've (probably) never been! Pile your exhausted body on the floor of a hotel room stacked up with drunk nerds! It's more fun that it sounds! If you live driving distance it's an excuse for a ROAD TRIP! I always make a point to take my picture with at least one Bob's Big Boy en route to SPX:



YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO PARTY WITH THE BIG BOY!

Ha ha, oh yeah. That too.

Going to shows, especially SPX, is like entering a secret fantasy land where (close to) everyone is really cool and nice and loves comics the way you do, and you get to have a big ol' comic party!

[Marcos_Perez]

i find them very motivational. on more then one occasion i've started a con with a "ba humbug, comics are stressing me out and i would rather be home"
attitude and by the end i love comics all again and feel refreshed. and that is SOLELY thanks to all the attendees and the cartoonists. it's an invigorating and humbling experience!

come to think of it someone should do some sort of zen meditation/comics panel at SPX.

[lorisz]

Well, everybody just said it better than I could, but I'm a 100% with them.


(I'd also like to hear Horrible John Byrne Stories!)

[Ryan Dunlavey]

Sorry if what I said hurt Rickey - I'm not the most articulate person when speaking, and what I say and what I actually mean don't always match up (just ask my wife).

I don't have time to write out a thoughtful response but I just wanted to say that for the most part, Jesse's interpretation of what I was saying about the Diamond threshold is right on the money.
To me, being in the Diamond catalog means you are making a serious, business-minded partnership with a large for-profit company - and my statement was purely a reflection of that. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be making comics, and it doesn't mean that I think comics that don't make the profitable threshold are bad comics, or pointless, or anything negative like that. It just seems foolish to me to both make a large financial loss just because "I want to do comics" and expect businesses, retailers and to do the same, especially when there are so many other alternatives nowadays to getting your work out there - internet, POD, mini-comics, etc etc.

I'll write more when I get a chance.

[MrColinP]

I think it makes sense from a business standpoint of any given individual artist that "if your comic is not making money, there's no reason to do it". Sure, that's reasonable. But if you step back and look at the entire comics industry, having those works out there does in fact make good business sense. I think it's worth keeping comics around that are below the threshold because there's a lot of good stuff under there that provides more variety of product in comics shops than the majority of stuff that clears the threshold, which is all VERY similar. We've lost some good stuff because of this. Stuff that people who aren't interested in comics that clear the threshold might have gone to a comics shop to find. The lack of variety, and quite frankly intelligence, of comics that clear the threshold is the biggest thing wrong with this industry. And there were people who were willing to put variety and intelligence into comics shop even though they were (shock! horror!) not making or even losing money. And now they're being shut down and the industry is becoming even more stunted than it was.

Even though it might not make business sense to put out a comic that's losing money, I wish people still had the option to do so.

I agree with what Ryan said above. All the new comic making and distributing options are exciting. But this is going to hurt comic book stores in the long run, and that bums me out.

[Chris Schweizer]

If you want to eventually move to making comics as a living (or, at least, getting to the point where comics fund your civil war reenactment expenses), you've got to do the shows. It's the networking more than anything else. All the other things mentioned are absolutely great, but most of them tie in to the overall networking theme. Mercenary as it sounds, friends who make comics are also contacts in the industry. Readers of your minis are potential readers of your books AND potential patrons, helping you to make it economically by commissioning or buying originals. Your favorite artist may end up championing your stuff. Everyone you meet at a show has some vested interest in comics, and therefore everyone you meet has the potential to, in some way, help move your cartooning career forward, which is something that has to happen; I expect that one can only do comics as a hobby (because, as a hobby, it's incredibly expensive and time-consuming) for so long before getting burned out - going to shows helps make it a career, even if it's one that has to be subsidized partially by other means. It's a less direct route than film, to be sure, but the eventual benefits - being able to make it as a comic creator, economically - are just as tangible.

[JP Hootiger]

ColinP -- you're totally right about needing diversity in the comics shops. My least favorite stores are the ones that just order from the front of the catalog. However, Forbidden Planet here in NYC, where I spend about half my comics money, has an amazing indie section literally overflowing with mini comics of all stripes. The buyer is super smart about what he gets in there and I can't imagine he does any of the ordering through Diamond. It's so much fun -- without it I would honestly stop casually browsing comic book stores.

My hope is that more comics shops will diversify their orders, reducing Diamond's impact on their business.

[MrColinP]

However, Forbidden Planet here in NYC, where I spend about half my comics money, has an amazing indie section literally overflowing with mini comics of all stripes.

I'm jealous! That store is amazing. If you're lucky enough to live in a place with a shop as awesome as Forbidden Planet then you're set. It's in more remote areas (the vast majority of places, really) that indies are only a blip on the radar. I live in Sarasota, Florida and while I LOVE my local shop, it is not diverse. Everything I said in my last post is kind of a moot point because my local shop could NEVER afford to buy indies because no one would buy them and they don't know how to get them to. There's a mind blowingly alternative liberal arts college here, New College of Florida (a school that in an official capacity hosts booze friendly parties themed around the Jorodowsky film The Holy Mountain), and one of the BEST arts colleges in the country here Ringling College of Art (all the CGI studios Pixar and DreamWorks cherry pick employees from this school) and I know that my local store STILL couldn't sell books to these kids- because the store doesn't know how and the kids wouldn't buy them anyway. This is the real brick wall of the comics industry I think- comic stores that are set in their ancient ways don't know how to get people to realize that pound for pound comics are better than any other medium or industry.

My hope is that more comics shops will diversify their orders, reducing Diamond's impact on their business.

I'm going to make sure that my local shop knows all about Ka-Blam's Comics Monkey (a hard sell, I know) and any other promising service that comes around. Everyone else NEEDS to do this as well to release the industry from this stranglehold!

[Andy]

So many great comments. In making my own work, I look at it this way... If I feel like I have a story to tell and I make a comic and five people read it and enjoyed it, was it worth making it? To me it was. Again, if it was my sole source of income I'd be in trouble. But there are other reasons for making things besides money.

Hopefully I'll find more than five readers, but it's thoughts like this that inspire me to get drawing -- and going to shows if I can.

[Rickey]

To me, being in the Diamond catalog means you are making a serious, business-minded partnership with a large for-profit company - and my statement was purely a reflection of that. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be making comics, and it doesn't mean that I think comics that don't make the profitable threshold are bad comics, or pointless, or anything negative like that. It just seems foolish to me to both make a large financial loss just because "I want to do comics" and expect businesses, retailers and to do the same, especially when there are so many other alternatives nowadays to getting your work out there - internet, POD, mini-comics, etc etc.

Well said. I have to admit that as I listened I pretty much came to the same conclusion as JP that you were mainly talking about people who do comics as a business, so no worries. That was my fault for not being clear in the post. I'm actually glad you made that initial statement the way you did, even if it's not exactly what you meant because that's what really got me to thinking about why exactly I do make comics.
And thanks to everyone for such thoughtful feedback on both the point of going to shows AND for making comics. On the shows end this has really inspired me to try and find a way to make it out to SPX this year. I know every year I listen to the podcast and kick myself for not going because it sounds like such a great time filled with great people/artists and great opportunity.
I also want to say something to clarify in the defense of the BF. He wasn't being negative, he was just being curious because he really believed there were these comics talent scouts out there that flip through your books and say "I like your work kid, you got moxie! Why don't you come with us and kid and we'll make you a comics star." He wanted to know what the comic maker's version of a "big break" might be, that's all.
I hope more people continue to post here along the JP suggestion route of saying what the point is for YOU whether doing shows or making comics period. I think my original post was supposed to be a little more uplifting than it came out, and so far everyone else has been doing a much better job and I appreciate that.
Smiley Face.

[joey weiser]

And thanks to everyone for such thoughtful feedback on both the point of going to shows AND for making comics. On the shows end this has really inspired me to try and find a way to make it out to SPX this year. I know every year I listen to the podcast and kick myself for not going because it sounds like such a great time filled with great people/artists and great opportunity.

Yeah! You should totally come! Do it! And when you do, please stop by and say "hi"

[lizbaillie]

JP - Forbidden Planet RULES! I worked there for about two and a half years back in the day, around the time I put out My Brain Hurts #1 (so... a LONG time ago) and they have always been super supportive of my work and the work of most NYC indie cartoonists. And from a consumer standpoint they have an absolutely stellar indie and minicomic selection.

Rickey - You've GOT to come to SPX!! If you go to even just ONE indie con a year, make it SPX. As my friend Robin Enrico puts it, "It's the Wrestlemania of indie comics!" though I tend to refer to it more as like a combination summer camp/family reunion for indie comics nerds, the Wrestlemania metaphor is not far off the mark. Seriously, most of my closest friends I met at either SPX or some other comics thing. It is definitely worth it to go at least once.

[Gomi]

Forbidden Planet does rock.
I met my wife there.
love and comics in one spot!!

[Lieutenant Lava]

As swampy as Forbidden Planet gets sometimes... I really think it's my favorite store. Their Indie section is just so well-stocked and everyone that works there is super-nice (especially considering the table manners of comics afficianados).

I ONLY wish they had old comics for young fogeys like me! (I know there's NO room in there! Maybe when Manga stops being cool (circa 4193 A.D.) they'll convert the second floor...)

When I think back to the comic book store I went to in Tucson... it was a converted porno shop, so no windows and a weird L-walled entrance to hide your shame of walking in. The owner was always eating and would shove little kids around. You couldn't "look" unless you were going to buy. And the only indie comics they would carry had big boobs.

They did have some sweet-ass sweet 50cent bins! Oh, the good ol' days when times were bad!