[brydeemer]

Issue 2!

Bry

[Brack]

Re: Purples & Greens

I've written about the colour theory of superheroes/villains on my site before. A simple rule of thumb is primary colours = heroes. Secondary colours = villains. Particularly true for Silver Age Marvel & DC. It's also interesting to note the big names that break that rule tend to be "monstrous" heroes like The Thing and Hulk or ambiguous characters like Namor.

Re: 80s writing sexism.

I think it's more Jim Shooter than the era. Compared to what Stern was doing with She-Hulk, Wasp and Captain Marvel in Avengers, their portrayals in Secret Wars are appalling.

This post has been edited by Brack: 04 December 2008 - 03:23 PM

[jaytomio]

Turning out be a real great choice to discuss in this manner.

[Robot Porter]

I'm really enjoying rereading this as you guys go through it. Shooter's one of my favorite writers, but I always considered this a lesser-effort.

But re-reading it now, I'm struck by all the things he's doing here that comic writers today have problems with. The sense of scale. A large cast of clearly delineated characters. And a clear through-line that carries the story forward.

And permeating all this is a grand sense of fun.

There's also this "Marvel Comics Vibe" I get when reading this comic. I don't get that when reading Marvel Comics today. And I miss it.

[jaytomio]

Sorry if this is a bit OT but on Zeck, at least for myself and now that I think about there is some weight to his being (as I think some listeners noted) about him being perhaps the artist that works as a bit of a base or foundation. For me, it was just an extension off of the very base of my intro into the hobby that merely carried over into MARVEL Superheroes (I can't recall how it occurs in publishing chronologically but I definitely read G.I. Joe before any Super Hero comic) as Zeck 's G.I. Joe covers were very much my status quo (in a good way) in how I viewed Marvel and maybe even comics in general. Some of the early Special Missions covers are great to!

[Bugz]

Enjoying the podcast and the footnote episodes. My question, is there a list somewhere of what books you guys are going to review? So I can have a chance to pick them up and read them prior to the episode.

I'm brand new to comics at age 42, . A GNU/Linux software writer was going on about making a commercial digital comic reader with library management which sparked a lot of talk in the Free Software world, so I checked out Comix and torrented some comics to have a look and see what was going on. I've actually enjoyed a lot of what I've read and started picking up trades to support the creators and companies I like (So far Amazon has been the best deals for me because of free shipping, but I did send some love to Instocktrades to support the sponsor).

I've got my Watchmen trade so I'm ready for that one. That was a great comic, just didn't like the ending so much, I'd rather have justice and truth than world peace. Let man make decisions based on fact and not manipulation, and suffer the due consequences of his choices.

P.S. CGS and CCL are my favorite comic podcasts, and I've found many comics to check out through listening.

Bugz

[Trade-Waiter]

Here's a oool page with info about all the shouting in Secret Wars, even comparing the number of exclamation points to other Marvel titles at the time.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2...ds-revealed-90/

[Peter]

Here's a oool page with info about all the shouting in Secret Wars, even comparing the number of exclamation points to other Marvel titles at the time.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2...ds-revealed-90/

Ha! That's a riot!

[Peter]

Enjoying the podcast and the footnote episodes. My question, is there a list somewhere of what books you guys are going to review? So I can have a chance to pick them up and read them prior to the episode.

I'm brand new to comics at age 42, . A GNU/Linux software writer was going on about making a commercial digital comic reader with library management which sparked a lot of talk in the Free Software world, so I checked out Comix and torrented some comics to have a look and see what was going on. I've actually enjoyed a lot of what I've read and started picking up trades to support the creators and companies I like (So far Amazon has been the best deals for me because of free shipping, but I did send some love to Instocktrades to support the sponsor).

I've got my Watchmen trade so I'm ready for that one. That was a great comic, just didn't like the ending so much, I'd rather have justice and truth than world peace. Let man make decisions based on fact and not manipulation, and suffer the due consequences of his choices.

P.S. CGS and CCL are my favorite comic podcasts, and I've found many comics to check out through listening.

Bugz

Bugz! Thanks for writing! I'm really digging the new forum posters or the posters will lower post counts joining us for these discussions! Keep it up!

As to your question, right now Footnotes is focusing on four titles:
- Secret Wars 1-12
http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=602

- Thor 337 through 350 (the end of the Surtur saga) or 367 (the last Walt Simonson as writer and artist issue)
http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=1246

- Justice League/International (at least up to issue 24 - where it splits off into JLI/JLEurope)
http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=1334

- JSA (the Robinson/Goyer/Johns run starting in 1999)
http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=225

I'll make sure that at the end of each episode, we'll mention which issue the next issue will cover. Some might be interrupted by Annuals. If it crosses over into another title, we'll probably talk about 2 issues in one episode (unless it's a multiple part story like Black Reign where maybe we'll flip flop. We'll see).


Also, starting in mid-December we'll be doing a weekly issue by issue look at Watchmen.

Those five titles will keep us busy for a bit. The first to end will be Secret Wars - we'll decide at that time what other title we want to replace it with.

[brydeemer]

Bugz! Thanks for writing! I'm really digging the new forum posters or the posters will lower post counts joining us for these discussions! Keep it up!

As to your question, right now Footnotes is focusing on four titles:
- Secret Wars 1-12
http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=602

- Thor 337 through 350 (the end of the Surtur saga) or 367 (the last Walt Simonson as writer and artist issue)
http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=1246

- Justice League/International (at least up to issue 24 - where it splits off into JLI/JLEurope)
http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=1334

- JSA (the Robinson/Goyer/Johns run starting in 1999)
http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=225

I'll make sure that at the end of each episode, we'll mention which issue the next issue will cover. Some might be interrupted by Annuals. If it crosses over into another title, we'll probably talk about 2 issues in one episode (unless it's a multiple part story like Black Reign where maybe we'll flip flop. We'll see).


Also, starting in mid-December we'll be doing a weekly issue by issue look at Watchmen.

Those five titles will keep us busy for a bit. The first to end will be Secret Wars - we'll decide at that time what other title we want to replace it with.

I want to do the entire 120-issue run of Marvel's Groo! Come on team, we can do it. Each episode will be filled with cheese dip and mulch jokes.

Bry

[David D.]

Really enjoying these, guys. I may need to finally track down Secret Wars (if I can still find it in softcover trade... HELLS NO am I buying an Omnibus). But I must have read some of these at some point, since a lot of this sounds familiar (I am sure I read SW II)

[yodajones]

First off, and this is certainly not the prevailing opinion i am sure, I don't care for Jim Shooter's writing. I never have. I feel like he suffers from what I call George Lucas disease; he's got great concepts and ideas but can't write dialogue to save his life. I love what he did to the Legion BITD, Valiant, etc. but his writing makes me want to automatically grit my teeth. I'm sorry. I know you guys excuse a lot of it as "that typical bad eighties writing" but its not the case here. Its just awful.

Second I loved Mike Zeck's Cap run. Its one of THE defining Captain America runs and I would recommend it to any Cap fan who hasn't checked it out. Having said that, Secret Wars is not his best work by any means. It looked to me then (and does now as well) as very rushed; the work of a master craftsman given a too short a time to complete his task. There are a lot of characters to draw here, and it'd be a lot for any artist to deal with (except maybe Geo. Perez ) on a typical comics publishing schedule.

I remember feeling burned/betrayed by Contest of Champions as, at the time it came out, even as a padawan geek;I felt cheated and then seeing Secret Wars on the racks and thinking "Here we go again..." By the time this came out i was reading Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, Perez and Wolfman's Teen Titans, Fleming and Von Eeden's Thriller and the Levitz/Giffen Legion and this just didn't seem to cut the proverbial mustard in my eyes at the time.( I just realized those were all DC books but I loved me some DD and FF as well...) I ended up reading it much later in trade at a friends insistence and was still nonplussed.

I am listening to the Footnotes show however as your particular take is nostalgic, entertaining and may actually force me to give this another chance. I was more intrigued at the time with the outcome of the event and the storylines that spun out of it (Spidey's new costume, She-Hulk in the FF, etc. ) and the ramifications than the actual event itself, and I guess I still am.

I actually got a kick out of the 90's Spider Man animated show's take on Secret Wars as it was much more streamlined as a story, didn't meander as much as the comic does, and had characters acting and speaking in character.

You may flame away oh Secret Wars fans; I'm a big dude, I can take it.

[Agitprop]

My first introduction to any Marvel besides Spider-Man was with the Secret Wars action figures at age 4-5, and I am here today to testify that it is only RIGHT and NATURAL that Iron Man is in the running for mightiest marvel hero. Years of recent continuity had robbed me of my senses, but your discussion on this episode brought it all back for me. It makes perfect sense that the guy in the awesome armor is stronger than everyone who isn't. Seriously, trust me on this. There were serious fights over who would get to be Iron Man on the playground for exactly this reason.

Oh, and to address your point from the last episode, you are correct that there was no mention of Jim Rhodes accompanying that Secret Wars action figure... the deception was so complete that I didn't know who was in there until the day I listened to the episode. For decades, I have lived a lie!

[Robot Porter]

Here's a oool page with info about all the shouting in Secret Wars, even comparing the number of exclamation points to other Marvel titles at the time.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2...ds-revealed-90/

There's actually a reason for this. For a long time, it was felt that periods didn't "read." That they just looked like a printing error.

So exclamations marks, question marks, and ellipses were used almost exclusively.

As printing techniques improved, periods began to be used more frequently.

The lack of periods does give a breathless quality to the dialog in Silver and Bronze Age books.

[Robot Porter]

First off, and this is certainly not the prevailing opinion i am sure, I don't care for Jim Shooter's writing. I never have. I feel like he suffers from what I call George Lucas disease; he's got great concepts and ideas but can't write dialogue to save his life. I love what he did to the Legion BITD, Valiant, etc. but his writing makes me want to automatically grit my teeth. I'm sorry. I know you guys excuse a lot of it as "that typical bad eighties writing" but its not the case here. Its just awful.

At least Shooter can write stories with a beginning, middle and end. A skill lacking in most contemporary comic writers.

And that's one of the reasons I see the writing of superhero comics today as having changed stylistically, rather than an improved.

I can enjoy each era for what it does best. But I see little progression. And we all know in twenty years people will be talking about "typical bad noughties writing."

[Hassan T]

I am really digging these footnote episodes. I don't have to worry about if I am current on the book or not and it is a look back at some great comic book runs.

I agree that Zeck's art on this book wasn't his best. In fact, I think his work on Captain America (which was prior to this book was better). I don't know if it was the deadlines or what, but this wasn't his best work.

While the iconic versions of the characters were used, unfortunately during that time period, the Wasp had the both the ugly haircut and costume at the time.

At this time, I already started to read the X-Men on a regular basis and then jumped to read this series. I haven't re-read this series in over a decade (I am waiting for my the Omnibus), but if I recall, I didn't think Jim Shooter had a good handle on the X-Men at all in the series. As you guys mentioned, the Wolverine in Secret Wars was not in sync with the Wolverine appearing in Uncanny at the time. I read these comics as they were coming out and I noticed it even back then. Since the X-men were my favorite Marvel characters at the time, that mis-characterization had a negative impact of my enjoyment of the series. I still loved the series, but it could have been better if Shooter wrote the X-men better.

As for Iron Man's strength, back in the old days, I thought Iron Man and Hulk would fight all the time. This was before the Hulk became the "Super" Hulk he is today. So that is why it reads very wrong today.

Hassan

[MikaelLivesHere]

I love you for these episodes.

Purple and Green. What's not to love? And Kang gets robbed in this series in later issues. Doom is second rate to all things Kang.

- "Greetings Avengers. Surrender".

[Corwin]

Loving the Footnotes show!

Professor Xavier was cloned a new healthy body however he had unexplainable excruitiating pain when he tried standing. I think it was something with his mind that prevented him from walking for a while. He eventually overcame this hurdle which is when he was able to walk again.

[drmcnutt]

Add me to the lover of the footnote episodes.

Can't wait for a New Teen Titans 1-50. Come on Peter. For the love of Peréz!