To swipe or not to swipe... Options

[Buzz]

Few artists get the stinky finger pointed at them for blatant swiping from photos and works of other artists.
Greg Land probably get the worst of it(I'm guilty of pointing the finger too).But there are more beloved creators who have been doing the deed for a long time and seems to get a pass. Are the fans more forgiving to those artists..if so why?
Here's a Newsarama thread about David Mack swiping images from several artist's work.And there seem to be alot of forgiving and slapping of wrists than condemning.
What are your your thoughts on this?

Mackity swipe

[Gargoyle]

I was literally just reading LITG as you mentioned this and they have a Mack special this week.

Swiping is swiping. If you're deliberately doing an homage to a classic piece then the whole "after" thing covers it nicely.

Some might argue that it's no different from photo-referencing but for me there's an art in turning a photo into a drawing and even the most reference-reliant artists (such as Land) show great talent in converting the reference to the results. Whereas taking what someone's already converted and tracing it demeans your own work as well as insulting the fans.

That being said (and I'm no expert) it sounds like this practice is as old as the hills and just like the use of assistants isn't likely to change...it's just easier for people to detect now that the Internet's there as a resource.

[Buzz]

I was literally just reading LITG as you mentioned this and they have a Mack special this week.

Swiping is swiping. If you're deliberately doing an homage to a classic piece then the whole "after" thing covers it nicely.

Some might argue that it's no different from photo-referencing but for me there's an art in turning a photo into a drawing and even the most reference-reliant artists (such as Land) show great talent in converting the reference to the results. Whereas taking what someone's already converted and tracing it demeans your own work as well as insulting the fans.

That being said (and I'm no expert) it sounds like this practice is as old as the hills and just like the use of assistants isn't likely to change...it's just easier for people to detect now that the Internet's there as a resource.

What I don't get is the shots he swiped are no more than basic stock shots that any working pro should be able to draw in their sleep. Especially if you've been a pro for 15years or so.

[turborip]

What I don't get is the shots he swiped are no more than basic stock shots that any working pro should be able to draw in their sleep. Especially if you've been a pro for 15years or so.

I wasn't able to put my finger on what bothered me about this particular swipe, but Buzz just nailed it. Its not like its a super dynamic pose or layout, it seems so basic!

[Flintlockjaw]

I have no real problem with artists that 'swipe'. It's been done since the dawn of creation. Swiping to me is the same as imitating someones style. If the swiper can learn from the artist he/she swiped from...then that's not neccessarily a bad thing.

I mean...aren't inkers just tracing over the pencillers artwork anyways?

This post has been edited by Flintlockjaw: Feb 26 2008, 05:39 PM

[Buzz]

I mean...aren't inkers just tracing over the pencillers artwork anyways?

NO!

[Flintlockjaw]

NO!

Why ink when you can just darken the pencils in photoshop?

I keed, I keed!

I suppose one of the reasons artists 'swipe' is deadline pressure. I seriously don't see it as being any different than 'aping' someones style...like Hitch did on Davis and Jimenez did on Perez.

This post has been edited by Flintlockjaw: Feb 26 2008, 05:43 PM

[Buzz]

I know Mack. He's a good guy and a decent artist. If he is doing a homage to the other DD artists like he claims..then it's fine..give them credit(I still don't understand where Adam Hughes' work fits into DD homage)

If not...sorry Mack, You're a lazy Fuck!



This post has been edited by Buzz: Feb 26 2008, 06:33 PM

[Flintlockjaw]

(I still don't understand where Adam Hughes' work fits into DD homage)

He meant Double D.

[matchkitjohn]

Oh good Lord. The blown-up pictures really captures it. It's one thing to be influenced or inspired like the X-Men #137 cover with Jean and Scott or the Crisis on Infinite Earths cover with Superman holding a dead Supergirl. They've been parodied and used where you know its being copied. The use of a random page where you don't think anyone will notice seems like taking a shortcut. One panel maybe but not a page.

[Buzz]

Mind you the comparism shots were not put together by me. they're taken from the other threads posted by fans.

[JHawk]

Okay, but, but, but... what if the images you "swipe" are images you did while doing uncredited ghosting for the "original" artist? Are you still swiping? Or are you swiping from your self? Can you swipe from your self? Or is it an "homage"? Do you have to be put "After Me" on the page?

[Cadence]

Very dissapointing!

[Buzz]

Okay, but, but, but... what if the images you "swipe" are images you did while doing uncredited ghosting for the "original" artist? Are you still swiping? Or are you swiping from your self? Can you swipe from your self? Or is it an "homage"? Do you have to be put "After Me" on the page?

Then you wouldn't have to swipe at all would you? Just draw.

[torchsong]

I don't think I've ever really had a problem with swiping, as long as it maintains what I bought the comic for...the story itself. I use reference all the time, and, I'm not ashamed to say a lot of it comes from comics so I can get an idea for light source, shadows, etc. There, too, I'm not getting paid to make comics and you're not going to find mine at an LCS, so the playing surface is different for me as opposed to a "pro".

I guess I'd think of it as kind of a cover tune that a band might do. Sure, they might do it really well, but it always calls to mind the original artist that created it. And yes, there are rare cases that they outshine the original artist.

As far as Land goes, I've only recently started reading all his Soujourn work for CrossGen, and holy crap! He can photo-reference all he wants as long as I get the great panels and background art I'm also getting. I'm sure a lot of that is assistants, but still...some of that work is absolutely breathtaking.

[ChunkyMouth]

I tried chalking this up to coincidence, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming. I'm not a comic artist, but I understand deadline pressures and I can see how something like this could happen. I'm not giving Mack a free pass, but I'm not gonna start calling him "David Hack" like some of the other forums have, either.

I would, however, like to hear Mack's side of the story. If I were him, I would make a statement to my fans.

[Cadence]

Here is my problem.

Most of these guys get a decent page rate. Swiping/ Stealing is not only a slap in the face to reader but the also the companies that are paying them.

[Buzz]

I would, however, like to hear Mack's side of the story. If I were him, I would make a statement to my fans.

He did

Originally Posted by DAVID-MACK
Hey guys, thanks for the response, and I owe Jose Villarubia all the credit for his colors making my art look better here.

About the reference to Adam Hughes, yeah, I owe him credit here too.
When preparing for the look of this book, I wanted to really embrace the comic book look of things while keeping things looking realistic as well, and I'm a big fan of Adam's ability to do that, (one of the reasons I asked him to do a Kabuki cover for me, which is one of my favorites) and I was looking at a lot of his work, among others, as a kind of training wheels in considereing styles, and getting started on this issue. Particularly in that he also captured a Native American ethnicity so well.
As you know, I've usually painted echo to communicate that ethnicityl and I was exploring successful ways that can be communicated with line art as well.

This was one of the first pages that I drew in this issue, getting into the vibe for the series and you may be right that I referenced it too heavily. Sometimes when you are getting rolling on a project it takes a few pages to work the influences out of your system.

So props to Adam, you have to give credit where credit is due, and I hope this will be viewed as more of an homage and not be distracting to you in the context of the rest of the story.



Sounds weak.
He couldn't find references for native american any where else?
And I like to see acknowledgement in the credits then.

This post has been edited by Buzz: Feb 26 2008, 06:51 PM

[Buzz]

And there is a simple alternative solution to swiping...
PRACTICE AND GET BETTER.

[BadDeacon]

I think it's fine to swipe, as long as you don't get caught..